I know, this is the third post I’ve done on this current issue, but it’s important. Not least, to me, because about 60% of my viewpoint characters are women.
In my current WIP, I’m thinking of having one of my female characters say, “I’m not here for you to look at. I’m here to do engineering.” Because that, I think, is the heart of the problem, not only the literary problem but the social problem: men are conditioned to think of women as primarily there for their enjoyment, as only relevant for their attractiveness and willingness to offer sex. Only once we treat women’s stories, women’s realities, women’s concerns and experiences as valid and important in themselves do we make progress. And this is also the real point of the Bechdel Test (“Does this story include at least two named women, talking to each other about something other than a man?”)
I don’t find it easy. When I see an attractive woman, I’ve taken to reminding myself that she’s not there for me; she has her own thing going on. It’s a start.
Originally shared by Jack McDonald Burnett
A lack of imagination and a tendency to objectify certainly play a part in this. Little interest in female stories, which are not given the same status as male ones? Absolutely. But the taboo aspects of womanhood, particularly when it comes to our bodies, must surely also be a reason. When faced with such complexities, these writers take refuge in descriptions of cleavage, believing it is enough. It is not enough, and we are right to mock them. Maybe as a result they’ll try harder next time.
I don’t know. Am I guilty of this? I don’t think I describe a single boob in any of my work.
Izzy had about seven and a half months’ growth of rich, dark chocolate hair, not quite down to her shoulders; and she had a narrow face, pale likely from being knocked unconscious, that made her longish narrow nose and prominent cheeks more striking.
…
She was smart—BS, MS and PhDs in molecular biology and biophysics—well-spoken, accomplished, attractive, a pioneering female astronaut out of central casting. As the March departure neared, Callie became something like royalty.
…
Pam felt self-conscious around Alice, though Alice herself did nothing to encourage the feeling. But she was gorgeous and in great shape. Pam was curvy, she liked to say, and considered her looks nothing special: her dark complexion, flat nose, and narrow brown eyes came from her half-Cree, quarter-Iroquois heritage, and they weren’t combined with any remarkable nonnative feature. Both she and Alice had straight dark hair, but Alice’s always shone and bounced when she walked. Alice didn’t seem like the type who had any time to bother with nails, but hers always looked perfect, like they wouldn’t dare be anything less. Her attitude wasn’t the only reason she was intimidating.
Uh oh. I said “curvy!”
I have to admit that She breasted boobiliy to the stairs, and titted downwards is funny.
Yeah, it kinda bugged me too, because I basically don’t describe anyone unless that description is necessary to get across some plot point. I like the idea that everyone populates it with the person that fits their mental image. At that point, my sins are limited to accent, motivation, and such. If I want the reader to think someone is smart, I show it in their posture, actions, and dialog.
True story. When my first book was published, I asked a fan who was also a great artist to do the cover for me, and when he gave me the first draft, I noticed something strange. Even though he and I both were white males, the female protagonist on the cover was Hispanic. It was so cool, because I’d never thought of her as Hispanic, but of course, there was no reason she wouldn’t be. It felt like vindication of the idea.
Anyway, I know I’ve never described a breast or how smart a woman was. 🙂
Yeah, it kinda bugged me too, because I basically don’t describe anyone unless that description is necessary to get across some plot point. I like the idea that everyone populates it with the person that fits their mental image. At that point, my sins are limited to accent, motivation, and such. If I want the reader to think someone is smart, I show it in their posture, actions, and dialog.
True story. When my first book was published, I asked a fan who was also a great artist to do the cover for me, and when he gave me the first draft, I noticed something strange. Even though he and I both were white males, the female protagonist on the cover was Hispanic. It was so cool, because I’d never thought of her as Hispanic, but of course, there was no reason she wouldn’t be. It felt like vindication of the idea.
Anyway, I know I’ve never described a breast or how smart a woman was. 🙂
I can say I’ve never described how shiny or bouncy any of my characters’ hair is. Or focused on their nails, unless there was dirt or blood on them for some particular reason. My characters also tend not to dwell in envy of other characters’ physicality.
I can say I’ve never described how shiny or bouncy any of my characters’ hair is. Or focused on their nails, unless there was dirt or blood on them for some particular reason. My characters also tend not to dwell in envy of other characters’ physicality.
It can help to read any description you’ve written and see if you’d have said it differently if the character were male. Even things like action tags for dialogue can be revealing in this way.
It can help to read any description you’ve written and see if you’d have said it differently if the character were male. Even things like action tags for dialogue can be revealing in this way.
It can also help to remember that there are many women in the world who are not between the ages of 25 and 35 and yet somehow still manage to exist and have lives. Also dude who asked if he is guilty of “this” is in fact guilty of it but I glanced at his comment thread and I’m not going there to tell him so.
It can also help to remember that there are many women in the world who are not between the ages of 25 and 35 and yet somehow still manage to exist and have lives. Also dude who asked if he is guilty of “this” is in fact guilty of it but I glanced at his comment thread and I’m not going there to tell him so.
I noticed that too, Jenn Thorson It’s possible that that character is meant to be unlikable. Or very immature. But my sense from reading the passage is that we were supposed to sympathize with her measuring herself against other women. Which, tiresome.
Also WTF is 7 1/2 months growth of chocolate hair?
Or a remarkable nonnative feature?
I noticed that too, Jenn Thorson It’s possible that that character is meant to be unlikable. Or very immature. But my sense from reading the passage is that we were supposed to sympathize with her measuring herself against other women. Which, tiresome.
Also WTF is 7 1/2 months growth of chocolate hair?
Or a remarkable nonnative feature?
Donna Buckles So often, women are described in consumptive food terms. I understand black women get this even more.
Donna Buckles So often, women are described in consumptive food terms. I understand black women get this even more.
Yes I remember a brilliant comment thread somewhere talking about how women especially women of color are so frequently likened to food. Almond mocha creamy chocolate spicy coffee peach cherry strawberry milk honey caramel…
Yes I remember a brilliant comment thread somewhere talking about how women especially women of color are so frequently likened to food. Almond mocha creamy chocolate spicy coffee peach cherry strawberry milk honey caramel…
Donna Buckles I loved this version. 😛
buzzfeed.com – If White Characters Were Described Like People Of Color In Literature
Donna Buckles I loved this version. 😛
buzzfeed.com – If White Characters Were Described Like People Of Color In Literature
Brand Gamblin bwahahaha!!
Brand Gamblin bwahahaha!!
Mike Reeves-McMillan said: “that, I think, is the heart of the problem, not only the literary problem but the social problem: men are conditioned to think of women as primarily there for their enjoyment, as only relevant for their attractiveness and willingness to offer sex.”
I feel this is catches some good points but misses some others. I do think we live in a culture where we are ALL socialized to think of women primarily in terms of how they can be useful and acceptable to men. But that’s not just about sex. Sex is certainly one part of it and its where most of the attention and energy often goes. But there are also women doing a vast amount of unpaid or underpaid and unacknowledged work who are often written as if they were the invisible servants in Beauty and the Beast. Their work appears but they do not.
Jenn Thorson plays with this a bit in her Mary Ann novels by making a protagonist out of the White Rabbit’s servant who is mentioned but never actually appears in Alice in Wonderland. I enjoyed that very much. A flag bearer for all the invisible women in fiction.
Mike Reeves-McMillan said: “that, I think, is the heart of the problem, not only the literary problem but the social problem: men are conditioned to think of women as primarily there for their enjoyment, as only relevant for their attractiveness and willingness to offer sex.”
I feel this is catches some good points but misses some others. I do think we live in a culture where we are ALL socialized to think of women primarily in terms of how they can be useful and acceptable to men. But that’s not just about sex. Sex is certainly one part of it and its where most of the attention and energy often goes. But there are also women doing a vast amount of unpaid or underpaid and unacknowledged work who are often written as if they were the invisible servants in Beauty and the Beast. Their work appears but they do not.
Jenn Thorson plays with this a bit in her Mary Ann novels by making a protagonist out of the White Rabbit’s servant who is mentioned but never actually appears in Alice in Wonderland. I enjoyed that very much. A flag bearer for all the invisible women in fiction.
Donna Buckles oh, I love to hear that someone picked up on that in MARY ANN, that was absolutely what I was going for.
Donna Buckles oh, I love to hear that someone picked up on that in MARY ANN, that was absolutely what I was going for.
Fist-bump, Jenn Thorson
Fist-bump, Jenn Thorson
I’d like to ask a more general question:
How much of the bodily parameters have to be described at all?
Of course if it’s a person who’s missing a limb, that might be of interest, or like super large or other things if they do have relevance for the story.
But I — as a reader with real life experience — can perfectly imagine a woman or a man. I’m usually quite bored if I get a hair length in inches or centimetres or a color chart of the skin, maybe even in hexadecimal color coding, just to be sure how brown/white/yellow she (sometimes he) is.
Anyway: it’s show, don’t tell which brings me to the second reason why there should be no description at all, I rather should notice her/his abilities by having them shown to me. Like the protagonist helping out some french tourist. I learned that she’s well versed in French, I learned that she helps people (social abilities), I learned something about the place, about how she interacts. If she’s got black skin (and if that’s important for the story) I’d like to be shown the reaction on others, because that’s where the interaction with the story is: like, CTO Jones, or rather sitting-O-Jones, as the people liked to call him in his absence, shouted at her: ‘you clean here’. Her dark skin tone made many people take her for the cleaning lady. Given, that she didn’t wear her PhDs certificates on her clothes, people’s prejudices usually won.
I’d like to ask a more general question:
How much of the bodily parameters have to be described at all?
Of course if it’s a person who’s missing a limb, that might be of interest, or like super large or other things if they do have relevance for the story.
But I — as a reader with real life experience — can perfectly imagine a woman or a man. I’m usually quite bored if I get a hair length in inches or centimetres or a color chart of the skin, maybe even in hexadecimal color coding, just to be sure how brown/white/yellow she (sometimes he) is.
Anyway: it’s show, don’t tell which brings me to the second reason why there should be no description at all, I rather should notice her/his abilities by having them shown to me. Like the protagonist helping out some french tourist. I learned that she’s well versed in French, I learned that she helps people (social abilities), I learned something about the place, about how she interacts. If she’s got black skin (and if that’s important for the story) I’d like to be shown the reaction on others, because that’s where the interaction with the story is: like, CTO Jones, or rather sitting-O-Jones, as the people liked to call him in his absence, shouted at her: ‘you clean here’. Her dark skin tone made many people take her for the cleaning lady. Given, that she didn’t wear her PhDs certificates on her clothes, people’s prejudices usually won.
The amount of description varies on two criteria, Peter Speckmayer:
Genre: some audiences, romance readers for example, want the descriptions.
Removing the Default: applying description to something automatically means that all instances of the same sort of thing without the description are the default; so, if one character’s ethnicity is relevant to the plot, only describing that character’s ethnicity risks defining that ethnicity as Other.
The amount of description varies on two criteria, Peter Speckmayer:
Genre: some audiences, romance readers for example, want the descriptions.
Removing the Default: applying description to something automatically means that all instances of the same sort of thing without the description are the default; so, if one character’s ethnicity is relevant to the plot, only describing that character’s ethnicity risks defining that ethnicity as Other.
Although we have mostly talked about description so far, the article is not just about how female characters are described in fiction. It’s about how they are written. Poor description is one obvious way to see when any character is badly written but you can’t get around the problem by just not using descriptions. A badly written female character will still be badly written, a well written one will still be well written -whether she is described in great detail or hardly at all.
The choice of how much description to use is a stylistic one and people can write well or badly in all sorts of different styles. The issue is not merely can the writer describe women the issue is can the writer write female characters that work.
The woman who wrote the article suggests that there are two reasons male authors often do not write women very well. The first is that they have fewer literary models to look to or emulate. The second is that they aren’t really under much pressure to do better.
Although we have mostly talked about description so far, the article is not just about how female characters are described in fiction. It’s about how they are written. Poor description is one obvious way to see when any character is badly written but you can’t get around the problem by just not using descriptions. A badly written female character will still be badly written, a well written one will still be well written -whether she is described in great detail or hardly at all.
The choice of how much description to use is a stylistic one and people can write well or badly in all sorts of different styles. The issue is not merely can the writer describe women the issue is can the writer write female characters that work.
The woman who wrote the article suggests that there are two reasons male authors often do not write women very well. The first is that they have fewer literary models to look to or emulate. The second is that they aren’t really under much pressure to do better.
As an example of not being under pressure to do better, one need only look at the defensiveness being exhibited by the writer and his supporters in the comment thread under the post Mike Reeves-McMillan shared this from. They mean well I expect, they are trying to support and reassure someone they like. But what they are doing is shutting him off from feedback.
I appreciate that Mike appears to be signaling here that he may be open to some feedback. Or at least to discussion of the possibility that there is something to be learned.
As an example of not being under pressure to do better, one need only look at the defensiveness being exhibited by the writer and his supporters in the comment thread under the post Mike Reeves-McMillan shared this from. They mean well I expect, they are trying to support and reassure someone they like. But what they are doing is shutting him off from feedback.
I appreciate that Mike appears to be signaling here that he may be open to some feedback. Or at least to discussion of the possibility that there is something to be learned.
Donna Buckles Except the descriptions, what makes a female character work compared to what makes a male character work?
Or asked differently, where is the line between female traits and female tropes?
Donna Buckles Except the descriptions, what makes a female character work compared to what makes a male character work?
Or asked differently, where is the line between female traits and female tropes?
What makes any character work is that they are believable and reasonably consistent.
What I mean by reasonably consistent is for example if you have established a character as brave and then they suddenly start hiding behind the furniture when danger threatens then you are going to need to explain that somehow. One of the problems with female characters is that they are too often written as plot devices who just do whatever is necessary to advance the plot even if it makes no sense at all with the character as previously established. I remember reading a book a while ago where a female character was supposed to be an ambitious and ruthless person who had climbed over time to a position of considerable authority. But then for no discernible reason this character suddenly began crying and clinging to the hero asking him what she should do in a crisis. Which made no sense. Where did that come from? Was she drugged? Did she have a brain tumor? Was she somehow trying to manipulate the hero? I couldn’t make sense of it. And it was never explained it was just a plot device to send him out to deal with a crisis because if she dealt with it then he couldn’t be the hero.
This error of writing “strong” women who consistently fail to lead and instead cede the action role to the male characters is a common enough failure that it actually has a name. It’s called Trinity Syndrome. After the character in The Matrix who is demonstrably more capable than Neo and yet always takes a backseat to him so he can be the hero.
What makes any character work is that they are believable and reasonably consistent.
What I mean by reasonably consistent is for example if you have established a character as brave and then they suddenly start hiding behind the furniture when danger threatens then you are going to need to explain that somehow. One of the problems with female characters is that they are too often written as plot devices who just do whatever is necessary to advance the plot even if it makes no sense at all with the character as previously established. I remember reading a book a while ago where a female character was supposed to be an ambitious and ruthless person who had climbed over time to a position of considerable authority. But then for no discernible reason this character suddenly began crying and clinging to the hero asking him what she should do in a crisis. Which made no sense. Where did that come from? Was she drugged? Did she have a brain tumor? Was she somehow trying to manipulate the hero? I couldn’t make sense of it. And it was never explained it was just a plot device to send him out to deal with a crisis because if she dealt with it then he couldn’t be the hero.
This error of writing “strong” women who consistently fail to lead and instead cede the action role to the male characters is a common enough failure that it actually has a name. It’s called Trinity Syndrome. After the character in The Matrix who is demonstrably more capable than Neo and yet always takes a backseat to him so he can be the hero.
I would rather become right than claim to already be right, Donna Buckles. So I’m just listening and taking mental notes here. You’ve already given me something I can use in my WIP (about, as Tiptree put it, the women men don’t see).
I would rather become right than claim to already be right, Donna Buckles. So I’m just listening and taking mental notes here. You’ve already given me something I can use in my WIP (about, as Tiptree put it, the women men don’t see).
Donna Buckles WyldStyle in the LEGO Movie has the same issue. It’s a cartoon, yes, but the lead guy in the movie is pretty mediocre where she has skills. But her skills go away when he needs to save the day. It’s minor in the great scheme of things, but as a woman watching it, it sort of saps some of the fun away.
Donna Buckles WyldStyle in the LEGO Movie has the same issue. It’s a cartoon, yes, but the lead guy in the movie is pretty mediocre where she has skills. But her skills go away when he needs to save the day. It’s minor in the great scheme of things, but as a woman watching it, it sort of saps some of the fun away.
Yes, WyldStyle is another clear example, Jenn Thorson.
Mike Reeves-McMillan there’s a funny and poignant scene in the first season of Grace and Frankie where the character played by Lily Tomlin is trying to buy a pack of cigarettes and she can’t get service because as an older woman she’s getting ignored. She keeps trying to get help and people keep saying just a minute ma’am and then going on about their business like she’s not there. Eventually she gets so frustrated you can see her start to think hey, if nobody will pay attention to me, if I’m this invisible, does this mean I can do whatever I like and they won’t notice? So she just picks up the cigarettes and walks out and nobody stops her and she’s sort of triumphant and angry at the same time. Like she was sort of hoping maybe if she did something that outrageous they’d at least notice that, but nope.
Yes, WyldStyle is another clear example, Jenn Thorson.
Mike Reeves-McMillan there’s a funny and poignant scene in the first season of Grace and Frankie where the character played by Lily Tomlin is trying to buy a pack of cigarettes and she can’t get service because as an older woman she’s getting ignored. She keeps trying to get help and people keep saying just a minute ma’am and then going on about their business like she’s not there. Eventually she gets so frustrated you can see her start to think hey, if nobody will pay attention to me, if I’m this invisible, does this mean I can do whatever I like and they won’t notice? So she just picks up the cigarettes and walks out and nobody stops her and she’s sort of triumphant and angry at the same time. Like she was sort of hoping maybe if she did something that outrageous they’d at least notice that, but nope.
Donna Buckles In my twenties, I used to have to take one of my best friends with me (who was male and gay) to shop for TVs or appliances, or else no one would ever come to wait on me, despite my pleas. Thankfully, he was an empathetic person, as well as tall and male. He would slip away once I snagged the sales rep. Bless him. 🙂
Donna Buckles In my twenties, I used to have to take one of my best friends with me (who was male and gay) to shop for TVs or appliances, or else no one would ever come to wait on me, despite my pleas. Thankfully, he was an empathetic person, as well as tall and male. He would slip away once I snagged the sales rep. Bless him. 🙂
There was just an article circulating on G+ last week about women taking men with them to medical appointments because they get taken more seriously and listened to better if they bring a guy into the room with them.
I used to have this trick whenever I had to hire a workman where I’d leave my DeWalt cordless or some equivalent tool out somewhere visible and be sure to drop a couple of technical terms into the conversation. And jeebus who would buy a car while female if they didn’t have to?
There was just an article circulating on G+ last week about women taking men with them to medical appointments because they get taken more seriously and listened to better if they bring a guy into the room with them.
I used to have this trick whenever I had to hire a workman where I’d leave my DeWalt cordless or some equivalent tool out somewhere visible and be sure to drop a couple of technical terms into the conversation. And jeebus who would buy a car while female if they didn’t have to?
The question of whether a character is believable is different than whether they are consistent. Or maybe I mean that being inconsistent is one of the ways a character can fail to be believable? But there are certainly other ways to fail to create a believable character.
Like she says in the article “Sometimes you come across a passage where you wonder if the writer has ever met a woman at all.” I’ve certainly had that experience many many times. I think if you are going to write characters who come from an experience that is different from your own you need to work on understanding what that experience is like, and also its probably a good idea to check in with a few people who actually have that experience, just to make sure you aren’t messing up.
As an example that is not about female characters but I think is relevant, I read a story a couple of years ago in which a character who used a wheelchair was not well written at all. It was pretty clear that the writer didn’t know and hadn’t talked to wheelchair users. At one point the character somehow managed to get up a flight of stairs to confront someone on the second floor of an old house, and it wasn’t explained how he got there. Like, he just appears in his chair. Did the chair have a hover feature? Was there an elevator somewhere in this old house? What…? It threw me out of the story because it didn’t make sense.
Access obstacles are something that wheelchair users deal with, a lot, and just handwaving them away creates a believability problem.
The question of whether a character is believable is different than whether they are consistent. Or maybe I mean that being inconsistent is one of the ways a character can fail to be believable? But there are certainly other ways to fail to create a believable character.
Like she says in the article “Sometimes you come across a passage where you wonder if the writer has ever met a woman at all.” I’ve certainly had that experience many many times. I think if you are going to write characters who come from an experience that is different from your own you need to work on understanding what that experience is like, and also its probably a good idea to check in with a few people who actually have that experience, just to make sure you aren’t messing up.
As an example that is not about female characters but I think is relevant, I read a story a couple of years ago in which a character who used a wheelchair was not well written at all. It was pretty clear that the writer didn’t know and hadn’t talked to wheelchair users. At one point the character somehow managed to get up a flight of stairs to confront someone on the second floor of an old house, and it wasn’t explained how he got there. Like, he just appears in his chair. Did the chair have a hover feature? Was there an elevator somewhere in this old house? What…? It threw me out of the story because it didn’t make sense.
Access obstacles are something that wheelchair users deal with, a lot, and just handwaving them away creates a believability problem.
I hit a similar thing in a book in which the main character was on crutches, and somehow managed to carry two drinks. I’ve never used crutches, but I’ve watched someone do so, and you’re not carrying any drinks on those things.
I hit a similar thing in a book in which the main character was on crutches, and somehow managed to carry two drinks. I’ve never used crutches, but I’ve watched someone do so, and you’re not carrying any drinks on those things.
Donna Buckles I fired my OB/GYN (who was female herself) when I was pregnant with my second child because she pooh-poohed my concerns, then when my husband expressed exactly the same concerns, she ordered some tests.
Donna Buckles I fired my OB/GYN (who was female herself) when I was pregnant with my second child because she pooh-poohed my concerns, then when my husband expressed exactly the same concerns, she ordered some tests.
Donna Buckles Suddenly, I’m thinking it would be really fun to write an extreme version of that. Like, write action and dialog for a [insert group here] in the voice of a tone-deaf writer.
For instance:
“I haven’t been the same since the accident,” he said, gesturing at the wheelchair with his one good arm.
“I just don’t know if I can handle life with you like this!” She muttered.
He ran over to her and took her in both arms, hugging her tightly, “We will find a way, my dear.”
“I know, it’s probably just my excitable female nature.”
God, it’s painful just to write this. Ugh!
Donna Buckles Suddenly, I’m thinking it would be really fun to write an extreme version of that. Like, write action and dialog for a [insert group here] in the voice of a tone-deaf writer.
For instance:
“I haven’t been the same since the accident,” he said, gesturing at the wheelchair with his one good arm.
“I just don’t know if I can handle life with you like this!” She muttered.
He ran over to her and took her in both arms, hugging her tightly, “We will find a way, my dear.”
“I know, it’s probably just my excitable female nature.”
God, it’s painful just to write this. Ugh!